Film Crew Ahead podcast - Episode 4 Transcript

Drones and birds…

In episode 4 of the film crew ahead podcast, our guest Evie explores the fascinating ways birds respond to drones in their environment.

From territorial behaviours in the air to potential interactions on the ground, we dive into the science behind birds' reactions to unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

Join us as we discuss the potential impacts of drones on birds' lifestyles and learn best practices for how drones can be used in ways to respect birds' needs.

TRANSCRIPT EPISODE 04 

 Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Film Crew Ahead podcast. Today, I am happy to welcome Evie.  Hi Evie. Hello. You are our first external guest, like I said earlier. And I'm really excited to have you today. 

Cool. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for, yeah, thanks for having me.

Awesome. So we hinted at the topic in one of our previous Instagram reels saying that, oh, maybe we should have a bird expert one day on the podcast. Yeah. Well, we made it happen. 

I love that. Look, anything, any time to info dump about birds, I'm like, A hundred percent there. That's your thing. Yeah, I love it.

It's, try and stop me and like, you know, I just can't. I have no ability to register anyone's disinterest. So this is the perfect place for me to be, I feel like. 

That's awesome. Well, you know, personally, I'm really excited about this. I feel like as drone pilots, Raymond and I have been talking about birds quite a lot and we just have all the questions for you today.

So be ready. Let's do it. I hope I'm ready. Yeah, let's do it. So let's start simple.  Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit? Tell us a bit about you. 

Sure. Yeah, I'm Evie. I have been actually a performer for most of my life.  But I did grow up around animals. Sorry. I feel like that really fostered my love and respect for different species.

Funnily enough, the first word that I ever said was birdie, which, thinking about it now is crazy, because yeah, growing up, like I always loved animals, as I said, I grew up around them. My grandparents had a farm, always had little ducks and chickens and stuff running around, lots of amazing birds, other animals.

And yeah, obviously grew up with birds. loving them, wanted to work with dolphins at one point,  which if anyone knows anything about dolphins,  interesting stuff.  But yeah, and then I went down the path of performing for many, many years, which I still do.  But yeah, I started working with wildlife about like five years ago, professionally, and just fell in love with these like red tailed black cockatoos.

They're just something and they are, I'm going to get emotional talking about that. No, no, it's good, it's good, I love it.  But yeah, they're just amazing. There's so many species in Australia that are critically endangered. There's so many that rely upon obviously like,  very, very old trees. And so 100 to 200 years old is some of these trees that these birds need to have their nest hollows and things.

And so the plight of a lot of species became one of my things that I really wanted to help. And obviously with my performing background, I thought, Great. I can use both of these things together to try and bring some more, I guess  acknowledgement to what's going on and more awareness. So this is kind of the perfect place really because, you know, drone pilots in the air with the birds.

So sharing that space and being really respectful and understanding a little bit about Australia's very delicate ecosystems with birds. Especially.  Yeah, that's kind of why I got into doing ornithology. And so, yeah. 

Awesome. That, that's interesting what you said. We usually say when we were around clients and they're like, Oh my God, the birds are attacking the drone.

We always try to say, well, technically we're in their space. That's their airspace. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. We've only been around for maybe 10 years. They've been around for way longer than us. Yes, that makes sense. I really like that your first word was birdie, by the way. It's actually wild  to think about my, yeah, yeah.

You know, my, my, we're going on a tangent. My first word ever was,  you know, when you hang your clothes on the dry, that was my first word. In France we say like a pinch. So that's the first word I said. Pinch. I love that one. I don't know, like beans. Yours is more like I can say like related to who you became for me, I don't know.

I don't, but my clothes like  

Anyway.  Maybe putting cameras on things or I don't know. Maybe, yeah, clamp, you know. That's what 

happens. No, no, that's good. Also on the dolphin side, I feel like, did you grow up in the 90s? Yes, I did, yeah. I feel like dolphins were very important in the 90s for some reason. Yeah, It was on wallpaper, it was like on 

everything.

What was that designer called?  I'm gonna forget the name now, but yeah, all those like beautiful, people on social media that are on there a lot are gonna hate me for not knowing the name of this person, but yeah, all the bedspreads and the stationary and stuff. Yeah, it was everywhere. 

They were everywhere, but you chose bird and that's why we have you here.

That's it, yeah. That's great. So in more specifics when did you actually decide and why did you decide to study birds? Like, when did you have a moment where you were like, okay, now I'm doing this?  

Yeah, I had started maybe like a year into like working with like all wildlife. I was like, birds, I just really resonate with them.

I don't know what it is, just want to learn about them more. And so I actually thought about it for at least a couple of years. Obviously just reading research articles, like, getting myself absorbed in it. I was the go to person at my work for like, if there's anything bird related, like go and see Evie, like she's got it. 

And then I did a little show called The Voice.  And that's,  when I came away from doing that, I just wanted to take a beat and just go, cool, what do I really want to do with my life? And I still want to do music really bad, but I also really thought about it. And I was like, actually, really really want to dive so deep into the ornithological world.

And I thought the best way for me to do that is to go to what's called Charles Sturt University. They're the only place in Australia that does a specific postgraduate ornithology degree. So I was like, yep. I'm going to do it. I've got it. I'm going to take a year off of all my things. I'm going to just immerse myself in this world. 

And that's what I did. And now I'm back.  So  yeah, it was just,  me taking stock of life and what I really want to achieve. And just going, I just want  to help out the birdies. That's 

really cool. Like, I like this.  Yeah, that's really cool. So  This is not on the plan that I send you, but I was thinking of that question first. 

You know how we always say birds in general. I feel like it's almost insulting to all the birds because they're not all the same. So I don't know if it's a hard question for you to answer, but if we had to differentiate birds into large categories. Yeah, totally. How would you describe those categories?

Yeah, 

of course.  Well, to get really complicated with it, we could go into something called phylogeny, which is what all species on the planet have, even as humans.  And it categorizes each species within like a family group and within like an order. So if you've ever, you know, looked at, you know, humans are, you know, yeah, mammals.

And so mammalia, we were in the animal category, blah, blah, blah. But when you go down even further, so if we were looking at birds, I mean, we could look at,  I guess,  parrots, for example. That's probably a really easy one. I have parrots myself.  And so,  Sidiphormis is the name of that group.  And so if you get kind of familiar, I guess, with birds. 

group and their scientific names, you could get really complicated, but I guess we're going to go down a tangent because I'm very passionate about philology.  But I guess you could just say, you know, you could just say birds of prey. You could say  yeah,  terrestrial birds. So you could like, you know, emus  Ibis are sometimes a terrestrial.

You could look at like parrots, you could look at parakeets, you could look at honey eaters. Kind of classifying them like that might make it a little bit easier instead of going into like the full, the full phylogeny. But if people are really, really interested, there is specific classifications for every single species. 

Yeah. Kind of bird, if that makes sense. 

No, that's great. Because I was thinking that as you were speaking of you studied and, and, and were interested in birds, I'm like, okay, but, but what kind of birds? Because exactly, you know, when I fly a drone, if I want to fly it in New Zealand, I will not worry about the Kiwis, you know, because  

I'm not in the United States.

Terrestrial species, which means, yeah, terrestrial ground dwelling. Yeah. May not have to worry about this so much when you're flying, but when you're taking off, You still might need to be aware of them. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you're taking off near  some species, some species that are ground dwelling, because, you know, there is so much foot traffic from other species even moving through their, their environments.

Nest abandonment's a huge thing for a lot of species in Australia. 

That's such a good point. Yeah. Because we, well, all my questions are now floating at the same time in my head, so I 

feel like I'm going to start going down a tangent, so please stop me if I go a little bit too into it. 

Because now that we've specified birds, we also, on our end, have to specify the type of environment we fly in.

So sometimes I'm going to fly in, in this urban environment, you know, I'm going to be sometimes in Melbourne, CBD, but sometimes I'm going to fly all the way to Oyen or Avoca. And, and so these are completely different environments. I feel like in the city, I wouldn't encounter a nest like this.  on the ground, but what if is regional can this happen?

Like, could I by mistake take off two metres away from a nest on the ground? You know, is that something that can happen? 

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, like species like, you know, the lyebirds, they're a nest, dwelling, sorry, a ground dwelling species that creates a nest. Like bow birds, bow birds are a little bit more, obvious in terms of their little nests.

They've got like all the blue that's kind of around them if you're thinking about a superb lyrebird, but generally speaking, you can kind of see where their stuff is. So if you're in the middle of a forest and you think, Oh, this doesn't look too bad. There's a bit of a clump. Kind of a bit of a clearing for my drone.

There's a bit of a, you know, safe spot through the trees. Say you've only got a couple of meters, you think, oh, no, no, I can take off vertically. Great. No worries. You might be affecting a few different species around you that might abandon their nest. And then as you go up into the canopy, even if you can't see them, they might still be there. 

For example, there's the superb fruit dove. They create either nests, That are down low, or sometimes they're up in the canopy. And so if they're up in the canopy, they are so well camouflage. I often have a, like a daily occurrence with another species, which is like the rose crown fruit dove. 

Mm-hmm,

And so when I'm looking for it, it's in a captive environment. I should be able to find it really easily. But sometimes it will take me 10 minutes to find that bird because it is so well disguised, so well camouflaged. It's like this big, so like, if you're listening, like, you know, about three inches tall sometimes.

They're so tiny, you can't see them. So if they had a nest in the canopy and you were taking off with your drone, there's just no way that you would you would see that and you could easily disturb their nests. And they are vulnerable in some areas. So 

yeah, yeah. 

They could abandon the nest. So 

yes. And that's part of the podcast today.

Obviously the most obvious thing that we experience as drone pilot is being attacked by drones. By birds.  Rightfully. Yeah. I mean, fair.  But there was, so we can talk about this later, obviously, because that's the most obvious visual thing we've noticed. We're in the air, and a bird comes at us. Or a bird come check us, and then go away.

But all these things that were just mentioned, like as I'm ascending to go into position I'm still at trees high and obviously I'm causing stress on birds that don't leave their nest. And I'm just like, Oh my God, what is going on?  I always picture, you know, us being in our house and there would be a giant helicopter flying this close to my walls.

And I'd be like, what is happening? Yeah. So,  but before I ask, The question I'm thinking of, I have a first one, is that how much do you know about drones in general? 

I, yeah, I know a slight bit about them in terms of like regulations and things. Especially getting ready for this podcast, of course, I'm gonna look up some stuff to make sure. 

That's good. So the drone we fly we try to be quite nimble on the job. So we don't have those giant cinema drones that are like  lots of kilos, like 50 kilos heavy. We fly a small sub two kilos.  It's about, I would say 60 centimeter wise when we have protection around.  And it's. It's quite fast and not too noisy as well, so it's, yes,  so  that's what I wanted to say.

Like this is the type of drones we fly, so you can have a picture of it again. You know, it's, it's a bit noisy, but not too noisy, especially with new technology coming. They trying to make them less and less noisy. My question now is, now that you have our drones in mind, like if I was going, let's talk about regional first. 

If I'm going to take off in a place that seems deserted, but it's not true, what kind of reactions  could birds have to that? Is it, is it  My question is, am I being terrible to birds or am I not being that terrible, you know, like awful to them? Like, is it's yeah.  

So yeah, let's say you had a look around your area. 

Maybe for example, like there was a new development for like housing or something like that.  And you're taking stock of like where you need to like, maybe have some drone footage of a house you're selling in a sort of regional area. You got to look around and you're like, Oh no, there's no birds around.

Great, you could find a spot,  take off from there, but then let's say it's between August and November. Yes. There could be, you know, maybe a Mars Lapwing nest on the ground somewhere and you didn't notice. That might be not too far away. There might be like some magpie nests up in a tree that you didn't quite notice.

And so therefore, during that time period, that's going to be a big issue.  But in terms of like you looking around first, that's a great thing to do because that would be  one of the things that you'd have to put in an action plan. And so. If I, yeah, do a rewind and I say, when you're looking for a spot that is in a regional area, or any area really it's good to actually make a proper action plan, like, write it out, do a little map.

And then have a look at some resources to make sure you know what's going on. So you might want to look at what species are in my area. Cool. So if you were, okay, cool. So I can see from looking at maybe eBird, which is a great resource for up to date citizen science. So people are often counting birds, 

saying 

this is how many are in this area.

So it's a really great resource, free, you can have a look, cool. So let's just say there's a flock of Galahs in this area, maybe there's like 30 of them. Maybe there's a nest of a couple of magpies. You would know that then, so you could look at that, you say, oh cool. In my little plan,  from where I'm taking off, let's say within a diameter, or sorry, yeah, a diameter  a radius of like 20, 30 meters, there's this many species.

When you get there, take stock of that.  And then you could  find the best spot where you don't see them.  Morning and afternoon are probably the worst times to do it. Cause that's when they're feeding.  In the middle of the day, they're mostly trying to escape the heat, conserve energy, stay away from predators, all that kind of stuff.

But yeah, if you are near magpies, they're going to protect their nest pretty much at all times. Okay. So,  yeah, you just take off vertically. Yeah.  And that is probably the best way to do it. Like, ascending as quickly as possible, really far away from a nesting site. I feel like I'm going on a tangent, but this is all relevant.

No, no, no, this is 

good. And it's good because you confirm  Some things I've, I had to learn on the spot. Great. I was like, Oh, okay. When I, it's bird nesting season or when they have their babies, I've noticed that the closest I go, my maximum altitude is 120 meters.  So  for like, sometimes I need to do, because it's a camera on the drone, you know, I need to adjust exposure.

I need to adjust the saturation, whatever sharpness, but so when it's not nesting season, I can take off to my heights. Over in front of me and do changes. I've noticed that. Yeah. When it's nesting season or  when they have babies on the way . Mm-Hmm. . I just, I really have to do that really high in the sky because they hate me stand staying too low and yeah, probably because I'm too close to 

dentist.

That's perfect. Yeah. Because yeah. The civil aviation safety,  authority. Authority. Yes.  It's a mouthful. So many different abbreviations for these. But yeah, they say, obviously, 30 meters away from any wildlife, not just birds, is great. Yes. But yeah, going up nice and high is fantastic because it's going to really help from birds being scared in their nest, from feeling threatened, all that stuff.

Yes.  And let's just say like on your ascent  or your descent. Maybe there is a bird that's starting to get a little bit interested in what you're doing. Yeah, sometimes changing up your flight pattern can really help because most of the time a couple of species that get pretty close to it But most of the time  They can't sort of keep up with you on on that ascent.

They can't vertically ascend. They'll generally need to circle, find that thermal, raise up and then kind of come to you. So if you're kind of doing an ascend, descend sort of thing, if you start to see those birds getting maybe a little bit aggressive or upset or whatever, just keep an eye on their behavior and then sort of act accordingly from that.

But yeah. 

Again, the reason I'm smiling while you're talking is because I'm like, but also because you are able to explain why. Actually, do you know why a bird can not go that way very quickly. 

Yeah. So basically birds are pretty cool with how they fly. So they've got these little sensor. I'll try and put it in as simple terms as I can.

So many different words when you're talking about their wings in general. Yes. But when you're looking at a wing, there's different types of feathers that they have on there. Some are for obviously catching the wind. Some are actually for sensing the wind. What's going on in the wind? Wow. And so what they'll do is they'll sense different air currents and different temperatures in the wind.

And when you're, I guess, thinking about it visually, there's kind of like little tunnels and little currents that go upwards  in the air. And that's how airplanes get up there as well. Yes. But when the birds find those different things, they will be able to catch onto it and the thermals can help them get up nice and high.

And so therefore, if they're on those thermals, then they're going to be gliding down, down, down, down.  They can't just catch one and then go back down straight away, there's just, yeah. However, in talking about that, there are certain falcons that are very, very good at being able to plummet very quickly.

And we have a few that are in Melbourne, especially when you're talking about going into the city and maybe like, doing stuff there. We've got some very famous falcons that are on Collins Street and have nested there every single year for, gosh, I can't even remember how many years. But they are amazing.

So they can go.  Incredibly high in the air and they can almost, almost descent. vertically. 390 kilometers per hour is the speed that they can descend. Insane. So when you're talking about birds of prey, they're probably the ones that you want to be the most aware of if they're in the area. Because they are the ones that are really gonna probably,  A, get upset, so you're gonna be aware of them.

And B, Probably mess up your drone, basically. Yeah,  they're quick. 

They were by default in our, in our safety work method statements, which is a document that we fill out by law, but also for us to know what are the dangers on site when we go. So there's all the thing constructions related when we work in construction, but also birds are always there.

And any time of the year, birds of prey are always there. in the swims. Yeah. But also the, the, the stats that you just dropped about the specific ones living in Collin street, you know, when people say new fear unlocked, that's, that's what happens  to  me. So next time my admin person says you're shooting on Collin street, I'll be like, Oh my God. 

It's good to know. Thanks for warning me.  Yeah, so that explains, that's fascinating why they cannot really, so mainly crow, crows and magpies, that's what I've noticed, that they will circle and climb up in a sort of circle motion. Yep. And if I go up and down, sometimes they'll just give up. Yes. Yeah. It feels bad for them.

They're like, Oh, I can't, I don't understand what it's doing. So they go away and then might come back if they're really angry. Yeah. But yeah, that, that makes sense.  Thanks for explaining this. I was always wondering, Oh, but what prevents them for, you know, I was picturing us when we swim in water, we can swim right up and we can swim right.

So I was like, why don't they do that in the airflow? Yeah. Very 

different.  

That's really interesting.  Well, I guess because we're talking about different types of birds already,  To be honest, the ones we encounter the most in terms of real interactions, not just passing by, are crows and magpies. So I think we'll touch on that a bit later.

But at the moment, the ones I want to talk a bit more is the ones that we don't know are there. The ones that are staying in their nests. Or I was thinking, is there a chance that Is there a breed that would choose fleeing their nest and then may potentially not come back and then it's an abandoned nest or something like, with maybe abandoned babies.

Is that something that could happen just because I fly a drone too close to a nest? Yeah, 

100%. I mean, it can happen with, you know, Basically all species, but yeah, especially some of those ones that are definitely not  a bird of prey, I guess you would say.  So speaking back to like superb fruit doves.

So they're ones that I'm very familiar with in terms of like how they become a vulnerable species.  They are semi nomadic, which is migratory. So it has a lot to do with also, yeah, I guess drones as well.  And yeah, in terms of. their fight or flight response, theirs is definitely more of a flight response.

Pun absolutely intended. So. Good one. Yeah. And so in terms of like urbanization of environment, that has really affected them because any sort of, person that's walking through  could make them just go, actually, I'm not going to nest here. This looks like it's probably not going to be a safe zone for me. 

And so in terms of like drones yet for that species specifically, that could be a real issue. So yeah, in terms of like picking a spot where you're going to be doing your drones, if you are flying over a national park or something  so for that species, you could take off from a more  area with like a clearing.

That would be a better place to do it.  And go over that at a really good height. But again, there are specific, as you would probably know, there's specific areas that you can't anyway, for that exact reason. So a lot of those  I guess zones for flying drones, that's going to help a lot with specific birds that are going to be really affected by this.

By 

Okay. 

Nested bannerman and stuff like that. So 

that, that makes sense. 'cause that's something I was thinking of recently. I was in a sort of reserve. Mm-Hmm.  . And not reserve, like protected re reserve. It's just called a reserve because there's a playground and Mm-Hmm. and there was an opening.

Mm-Hmm. . And as I arrived there.  the birds were just chirping like peacefully and obviously as soon as they hear the noise of my props  going up it's a big like  even though it's not that noisy they totally hear it yeah and and they see me moving upwards everybody's like chirping but like in panic mode and i can hear it yeah and obviously i'm aware that there's also crowds in the environment and i was thinking seeing some birds tiny birds fly away they never come try to Attack my drone.

They just fly away. Yeah, and I was thinking but In the meantime, they potentially leave their babies in a nest that can, that then can be, or eggs that can be eaten or taken by a bigger bird. Is that something that you think is possible as well? 

Oh, 100%. Yeah. Because if, yeah, if they feel like it's an area that's going to be a threat to their young, sometimes in terms of, they call them maternal effects.

Okay. So if they figure out, okay, this area is not safe for me, in terms of like how much, energy, like calorically, like building their nest. Cause not all birds build nests. Some might find, you know, a nest hollow or something like that. For some birds that are spending weeks building a nest, that's so much energy.

That's so much food. That's so much time. And if they build this nest in an area that's not safe, That's, you know, that's not smart thinking for them. They, so they think, okay, well, I'm not going to spend two weeks building the nest. I'm not going to spend, you know, 30 days or up to, you know, a few months like incubating or looking after this nest or this egg.

Nah, I'll just find somewhere else. And so in terms of their own safety, They will pick somewhere else because it is calorically taxing for them, their whole bodies, it's not just about the eggs at that point, it's about their livelihood.  So yeah, they might think, I'll just pick somewhere else, it's a better, better spot for me.

This is so interesting because it means depending on the operations we're doing, the drone operations, it will have different impacts. Because if I'm going somewhere, once for one mission and never come back. Maybe birds will have noticed me, but then they never see me again. But I'm thinking of type of works that in construction as well are very specific like surveying.

And sometimes we don't always, we don't necessarily do that, but I know other drones pilots, they're there every day at the same time and they're doing the same flight path.  And they have to do that flight path because that's how they measure the progress of rail.  A train track, for example. So they can't think of all of that.

I don't think they do, to be honest. Now I want to do that. But if they do that for six months, every day, maybe they have prevented birds from nesting there that wanted to nest. there in the first place. And then it was like, well, no, 

this 

is not happening. 

A huge risk 

for sure. 

And I'm sure even with them taking that risk in terms of that, they would have already taken, I would hope, a risk assessment in terms of, cool, what birds are in my area?

How do they react to things?  And also, I mean, there's so many birds that do live in urban areas  that have, I guess, kind of gotten used to our presence.  So, in some species, it's gonna be individual to like, maybe, other species. Yeah. So  It's always, it's not always like a one fits all approach, because yeah, in some urban environments, maybe some things might not bother them.

Yeah. You can't always put that application onto every single species. So, yeah, in terms of that sort of stuff, it would, yeah, always depend on like where it was, what kind of birds are around. But yeah, it is something to take into account that, yeah, if, if it was a species that thought, hey, there's this drone in my area every single day, I'm not going to nest here.

Yeah. it can definitely affect, you know.  

I feel stressed for all these birds right now. They're just around, poor little things.  It's the same when I walk my dog, you know, like, obviously, it's fascinating to me, because I didn't know that until I actually had my dog as an adult and started walking her in the street.

And, and even though we're on the ground, birds are stressed and come check her, or like, try to, to swoop her.  Which  it seems so stressful, like it seems like everything literally disturb, can disturb birds. And 

birds, well, speaking of like corvids and magpies specifically magpies can remember faces for up to seven years.

So they say paying your sweeper taxes at different times of the year, like not in like, you know, the August and November time, being nice to magpies because They will remember  

If you're, if you're back in that area. So potentially, like, if you were flying your drone in a specific area, say all the time, and maybe those birds were used to you, it might not affect them as much as maybe another one that wasn't familiar with you, wasn't familiar with your drone.

They might be a lot more upset. But even in saying that, I mean, a drone in the air is not a peasant. So it's a bit different. 

Yes. Yeah. You  do think that, for example, drones in terms of threat category  Way worse than dog on the ground like they do have categories for threats. 

I guess it would be yeah But there's a lot of going to perceive that as a threat.

However, also because Corvettes are so intelligent Let's say for example, they did have a bad experience with a dog or something like that They're therefore gonna perceive dogs as a threat Individually as more of a threat.  Even recently, one of my friends was talking about how her son,  who is, I think he's four now, was the target of their entire family.

And I was like, what? He hasn't done anything. He's the only one. Yeah.  And like, generally speaking, on average, magpies actually target males more than anyone else. So adult males. So there's actually only a few. A small percentage of those magpies that even swoop at all. And so when you're looking at that, small percentage going for males, the fact that that particular family group of magpies went after her four year old son.

That was really interesting to me because I was like,  why were they targeting him? So in thinking about that, I'm like, maybe they had a bad experience with some kids, maybe aggravating them near their nest. And so they think, Hey, kids are the ones we've got to go after. So if another bird somewhere else has had a bad experience with a drone, they might be like, drones are dangerous.

Yes. Let's get the drone. Let's get it out of here. So  I love it. Yeah. It's actually so incredibly complex with those very intelligent species because they're individuals just like us. And so sometimes  Yeah, you need to take a tailored approach to like literally every single drone flyer that you do. 

And to be clear, I'm always on the side of birds.

So the fact that you tell me they have their, and it makes sense because they're smart, their little personalities, their own preference, 

for some reason I just love this. They absolutely do. Yeah, I didn't even mention at the start, one of the things that really got me into wanting to study them is that, yeah, I have three, parrots of my own.

Yes. And their personalities are so unique. And definitely with like my family members, my immediate, you know, friend group, my other extended family, a lot of them, same thing, they went, I just didn't realize that birds had such different, unique personalities, that they just had so much cognition. And obviously that differs from species to species.

But yeah, I think a lot of people are starting to understand. They're not just some like, Random things just flitting around doing nothing. They each have their own individual lives Yes, just like we do really 

yes, and and you know what this is a realization that I had only  Last year. Mm hmm. I feel a bit of shame, but I didn't mind birds.

I just The, the best way of saying it is I, I used to take them for granted, especially before flying drones. I was like, oh yeah, birds. I had a preference for seagulls for some reasons. And when I moved to Australia, I really loved magpies, but you know, not, not to the point that I would start looking into it.

But then we have a colleague here at Mishai. She has a little bird as well. I think it's called a cock, cockatiel. A cockatiel. Yes. Love them. Yeah.  We started talking about it and she loves birds and on Instagram she started sending me content and and then my Instagram started Having all this bird content and I was like, ah, I think I really like birds Yeah And and the difference between even last year where I was just worried about them in general flying my drone to this year where I Actually have a bit of a soft spot for them now.

It makes a big difference in how I want to approach flying drones Mm hmm Because obviously, from a selfish point of view, we could think as drone pilots, oh my god, birds, they disturb our work. Like, I'm in the air and I'm risking to crash and, you know, it would be terrible for consequences if I destroy my drone, if I destroy things.

But at the same time, I don't want to hurt the bird. Yeah, that was always the case, but now even more than before, because  yeah take into account that they're a lot smarter than I thought they were, even though I already thought crows and magpies are super smart. 

And I love to hear that, that actually makes me so happy, because yeah, anyone that's starting to become aware of that, I'm just like, yes, so good, another win.

If you're thinking about it from like an anthropomorphic kind of sense so like, you know, putting human traits on animals, you know, it might just be like one day, one job to you, but for them, They might have to go pack up their house, move their house, build a brand new house, have their babies all over again.

Their other babies, see you later. Like that's, that's the reality of things. So sometimes it might be worth  rethinking what you're doing for the job because for them it's It's a lot more impactful for their lives. So,  I think, yeah, it's so good that you're so  thoughtful about it and thinking like that.

It's great.  

You've already mentioned some best practice with  the taking off and landing phase and also how to fly around.  I guess my question is, is what are the other things you think we could do, not only to obviously prevent us from being attacked, because, let's be honest, that's, that's a big concern in general as well, a big source of stress, but also to signal to them, hey look, we're not a bird, we're a weird thing.

But, and we don't want to harm you. Is there any way to do that? 

Yep. Okay. So again, not all practices are going to fit every single bird, but there are a couple of different ways. So the low noise that you were talking about is the first thing that's Awesome. So, I know, yeah, they are trying to make a lot more drones that are way quieter.

Because yeah, noise is a huge thing. For most small animals, if they hear this huge, very noisy thing, they're going to think, ah, predator. Okay. So,  the 

lower in noise that 

your drone 

is, the better. If I I may interrupt. It's funny, with my human brain, when I think of predator, of any type, I'm thinking sneaky, silent.

And I would have thought. So if it's noisy, maybe they think it's not a threat because it's not sneaking on them. It's so obvious that they're like, Oh yeah. So that's, that's an interesting point. Yeah. 

And actually to tangent off of that  when you're thinking about, yeah, like cats. So we do have like, you know, safe cats, safe wildlife in Victoria.

We ask people, you know,  you know, keep your cats inside all that jazz because In Australia,  predatory species like cats, apex predators like that, Australia natively doesn't have any of those. So that's why maybe, in terms of stealth predators, a lot of our species, like, you know, not just birds, but like mammals and lizards, other insects, amphibians, reptiles, a lot of them are starting to go extinct or critically endangered, threatened, all that jazz.

Because  those animals that do slink, that don't make any noise, they're not used to it, and so therefore they're easy pickings for these apex predators. So,  yeah, in Australia specifically, yeah, definitely noise is going to actually make them more scared than anything. Wow, this is, yeah, this is super interesting.

I'm glad we are having 

this conversation. Cool. So  so noise is a big problem. What else is signalling birds that I'm a threat? And what could signal them that I'm not such a threat?  

So like pretty crazy colours often are like things that really are alarming. Some might deter them, and again,  we speak about all these things, there's a lot of really cool articles, which I'll definitely send you links to as well, that, But people listening to this can read because these research articles, when you read them, you'll see how a lot of researchers have gone through different methods and they're like, actually, but this bird might not.

This bird, it works, but this bird actually it makes it worse. So  that's why knowing what birds are around is really helpful because yeah. So reflective things can sometimes be helpful. So if we're talking about like a reflective red tape.  For some species. That's going to deter them  because the way that bird's eyes work, some of those reflective surfaces are going to avoid them.

For 

other species, however, they might go, actually, that looks really shiny. So for corvids, for example. They like shiny things. Oh, no. Okay. Probably a lot of us have heard about, you know, Corvettes collecting shiny things because they're all pretty. Yes. If they see a shiny object in the air, it might be a curiosity more than anything.

So they might actually go towards it. 

Okay.  

And so it's kind of  staying in the middle of things, maybe have some reflective surfaces on the drone. Okay.  But not have it too bright. So maybe some parts of the drone have it a bit more camouflaged and some parts are reflective.  It's actually crazy.  

Funnily based on Raymond's research, that's what we've done as well.

Raymond is our other drone pilot for people who don't know that, but we have some. Hive is orange, great. Not the whole drone. Yes. Yeah. Because 

also there's a huge thing with a lot of species, having like window strikes and colliding with objects, because if they look like the sky, they're probably not going to see it.

Yes. And so if they collide with it, If it's a big species. This is 

why we usually, well, you know, we have prop guards that we, we can remove or put on. And it's really a fine line because for example, for us flying in the wind with prop guards on is a lot,  difficult, if not sometimes dangerous, because it could really be pushed around because the aerodynamic changes quite a bit. 

Obviously we have certain thresholds with winds. There's some winds condition we cannot fly in, but when we start reaching the fine line where we have to work and it's still safe, having the prop guards on or off can make quite a big difference. Also makes a big difference in terms of battery life, because obviously when you add the prop guards, you add weight.

So your battery is going to have to work a lot more to let you stay in the air. And again, all of this is supposed to be optimized, but that's all the fine details that when you change it, when they all add up, wind plus weight plus, that's when you see a big difference. But all of this to say that in spring times, even when it's windy  it has, there has to be literally no bird inside for me to decide not to have the prop guards.

Because, because I know it's possible that there could be birds. And so just the thought of chopping a bird with my propalus would be the worst thing. It has never happened to me. And I want this to never happen to me. So prop guards in springtime is like, it's like,  It would be 99. 99 percent of the time.

Yeah, 

and that's great. Yeah. Because, yeah, even when you're talking about, like, huge aeroplanes, like, in maybe some minds you might think, well, aeroplanes are huge. Yeah. Like, birds are gonna avoid them, surely. But there's actually a full on society that actually looks after making sure that wildlife doesn't have airstrikes, because unfortunately, sometimes they do happen.

And before a lot of things were implemented to keep them away from aeroplanes, it was happening a lot more often. And so, yeah, even just having all of these things in place can't completely eliminate the threat of a bird colliding with, you a plane or even your drone. And so things like galahs, like they flock together.

And so if you can see them like you know, not too far away, if they decide I'm actually going to take off right now and they all go together, they're all going to go together. And if they're anywhere near your drone, there's just no, like, I guess, no confirming that they're not going to collide. Because some might avoid it, but if some are behind the other ones, they're Yes.

And they're going to, you know, go into that. 

And that's a scenario that happened to me this year. I don't know if they were these birds. I think they were, but I'm not sure because I'm not the, the bird expert. Are they white? Glass? Yes. 

They're the ones that have like the gray, the pink. 

Oh, no. So it's not them.

Yep. Maybe you will know by my very terrible description that I'm going to say. Go for it. This is my favorite thing. Guess the bird. It was a flock of birds. Yep. In regional area. I would say. at least 20 together. They're white, and they don't make noise. So, they, they would approach my drone silently, to the point that, at some stage, I didn't have a spotter on that day because it was low risk activity for me on the ground, so I didn't have a spotter.

And, and so I'm doing my drone thing, and the reason why I saw them is, I was looking down, it was quite sunny. And I saw the shadow of the flock on the ground and so I look up and I see this flock and I'm like if they come closer,  I can't dodge them and what happens if, I don't know how they work, you know, I don't know how they fly together, what if one collides by mistake?

So do you, do you think you know what bird? they were?  

Oh, it could be so many. There are some that are like more quiet than others.  In terms of, it probably, if they were super quiet, it wouldn't have been self procrastic cockatoos because they're very noisy. However, there are other cockatoo species that don't make as much noise.

It might look a little bit more white. So, I mean, like if it was regional, like in the middle of Australia, I mean, it could have been like the pink cockatoos because you see a lot more white than you would have the like light pink color, which is really cute.  But. you know, if it's a quiet species up really high, it could potentially be even like a migratory species.

Okay. And so with migratory species, let's just say for example, you know, they're traveling across the ocean. So what they would do is they will find, you know, those thermal, like, parts of the air basically.  And they can stay in the air for extended periods of time, like upwards of like 30 days. 

Wow. In 

the air.

Crazy. I, like, sometimes I think about it, I'm like, that's, that's wild. That's very, very cool. They can have mini power naps when they're up there. And so they will just adjust their wings almost like subconsciously because of those little sensor feathers that they have in there. And so they could just be following their flight path, not fully, obviously being a little bit aware of what's going on because they need to, but if they're all traveling in a big group like that, that means that if your drone just goes, whoop, straight into their flight path, how many of them are going to quickly in that, you know, first couple of seconds go, Oh, we need to move.

Yeah, Adjust our flight pattern, there's probably going to be a collision. Wow. So knowing where migratory flight paths are as well, is a big thing. 

So where could I find that for example? eBird.  

Yeah, there's a few different ones and obviously I'll give a link as well but a few things like, eBird, The again, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority there's a really cool one that I recently spoke to not too long ago, and they were amazing to talk to with how they look after, you know, planes and making sure that wildlife and air strikes don't happen.

They have a lot of amazing resources. So again, another acronym,  so it's the Australian Aviation Wildlife Hazard Group, a fantastic resource to just get a little bit more background on, you know,  how can I avoid strikes in the air?  Because I guess very, very similar to  those as well.  I have so many acronyms.

Let me just 

cut 

this bit. 

It's very useful,  you know, because  murder of crowds. I love that saying. I hear them coming, even if they're 10 at a time, I hear them. And I'm not, I know I usually when I hear so many of them, I'm like, okay, time to land, you know, that time in regional, they were sort of coming back towards the drone, but they were so silent. 

Oh, it was almost like a silent, stressful fight, like not fight, but you know, they were stressed, they were attacking, and they were not making any noise. Yeah. And so with my drone, at first I was like, are they just passing? Yeah. And then suddenly they looked like they were heading towards me. Yeah. And they did.

So thank God I was lowering altitude, but it was so weird because It was silent stress. It was just everything was silent and I was like, what do I do? And then thank God I had someone to help me spot for them. Yeah. So we would wait for them to go away and I would go do my job and the spotter was just keeping an eye.

And as soon as they could say they were circling back, they said, okay, you probably have a minute. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, you have 50 seconds. And I'm like, okay. And so I would lower down. So I felt safer that way because I was like with flux, you're just thinking. If one bird takes a wrong decision, it could be the, the worst.

Yeah. 

So many acronyms on here, but the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, and then obviously, yeah, CASA, as I was talking about. Yes. Plus, again, I'll probably just send across so that everyone is listening or watching whatever is happening. Yes. Can have a bit of a read of regulations on websites.

Different guidelines to adhere to, different things to keep in mind.  And it's always good to make an action plan before each and every time and keep in mind all those things. But yeah, I personally use eBird. This is controversial in ornithology.  We like a 

good 

controversy.  But often when I'm going to a particular area, I will look up on eBird.

Cool, what's here? Okay. Some people like to use different apps. Okay. There's a lot of different apps. There's a lot of different methods to find out what's where. 

Okay. 

I personally like eBird because A, it's free. B, it's generally pretty up to date.  And it is from, again, citizen science. So what that means is, you know, yeah, there's people who what do they call them?

Twitchers, they call themselves. So they go out, they will count birds, they'll go watch birds, they'll update it on eBird, and then they'll say, cool, there's this many of this. species, this many of the species. And so generally I find that's great because I know that they must be readily available, must be easily seen by just people going out, having a look.

Yeah. And I can adjust the kilometers. I can look in a radius, I can look at a specific spot and go, Oh yeah, cool. That's here. Amazing. Cool. Cause sometimes it can be a little bit confusing. 

It's great to know because it's exactly what you said. Sometimes for drone operations, it's going to be within, you know, 50 meters because I for other reasons cannot go out of line of sight or things like that.

But sometimes when I can I could fly legally. It's until your vision gives up So mine is pretty good. It's up to 500 meters, sort of, I think 400. So at this stage, the drone is literally a little  pinhead, you know, in the sky. And as long as I know, I've been trained to do that how to bring it back, or I need to also be able to spot if there's birds around, but that would be good to have this, this circle of on the app saying, well, in one kilometer  this, these are the birds that are around because.

When I'm flying 300, 500 meters away from me,  it would be good to know what I'm disturbing over there, because physically, my body is still here, you know? So yeah, it's, it's, I'll have a look at eBird. And also, you're convincing me, like, it's almost like a little cold now. I'm gonna start being inside the bird cold.

You 

know, I love that. That would be so good. If we could get all drone pilots to, like, be updating eBird with citizen science, that would actually help a lot. So much for them to know what's around. Yeah, obviously we have so many endangered species and some are hard to find. Some are very elusive. And so if.

I don't know, if all drone people are going out there, maybe doing a walk or like, of where you're going to be going to, so like doing a walking path. Okay. I mean, that might be pretty far, if you've got a drone, but. 

It's good to know all the best practices anyway, because sometimes for other reasons, the sites I'm going to work in the air for, I'm also doing groundwork.

So it could be, it could be just best practice, be like, okay, We can do it because on the Tuesday, for example, I'm doing all the groundwork. So as I'm doing that, I could keep an eye out for clues. And the next day, on the Wednesday, when I'm coming back for the aerial work, then I know what I've seen the day before.

You know, it's all about, it's never black or white. It's like, but it's better to have, you know, the, in the middle. You can't always be perfect, but you can do things to improve. And I feel like this, this, knowing that now, it's really good for all of us, you know, the drone pilots listening to this. Yeah.

Yeah. If people, yeah, could do a perimeter walk of where they're going to be doing stuff, maybe investing in some like, Decent binoculars as well  and going out, making sure that their perimeter is safe. Just as you were saying, doing the groundwork, checking the day before, like making sure that's all good.

But yes. 

The good thing is when you mentioned really endangers I can't say that word. That's my French accent. And dangerous pieces? The good thing is because  50 percent of our activity is usually revolving around construction. And construction is  governmental construction, like infrastructure. So the good thing is they all have their environmental team.

And there's always No go zones on, on sites, you know, so these areas usually we don't take off close to that, or if there was endangered species, it would be most likely there wouldn't be construction going on  until the problem is solved or the challenges, you know, addressed. But also I know that we, if there was a, such a challenge on site, I would be told.

As a drone pilot not to go too close to those areas It's more like I guess it's interesting to learn that for all the other drone missions We do where we're doing for a specific client who doesn't have environmental team Then all these advice that you're giving me are gold because then I can do the same Do it myself.

Yeah, absolutely. So I have a bit of an odd question. We're getting towards the end of the podcast. I have two questions left, the odd one and then a fun one. Okay, great.  So if you've been listening,  up to this spot up to this stage, sorry, I'm really bad at advertising. Every time I need to tell people, please subscribe, I'm like starting to say nonsense, but Pretty much people, if you've been listening up to now and you liked what you've listened to, feel free to subscribe first so you won't miss any episodes that is upcoming.

We're trying to be quite regular on it every second month or so.  And also feel free to share with anyone who thinks would benefit from learning about birds today.  So moving on to my weird question, my dream since I've been flying drones  was to be able to talk to birds.  I know it sounds silly. Not silly at all.

Could we have a box,  like a, an audio box that has different birds language. And in all the language, the tweeting is like, I'm not a threat. And I play that before I take off. Is it a silly ideas to think of?  

Again, that's actually, it's not a silly idea at all to think of that. It is interesting though, because they do say that playback of different sounds can be very stressful.

Oh my God.  Doing all the 

wrong things. 

No, no, no, I mean,  again, one of my, like, going back to like, one of my dreams was like, when I was a kid, I was like, I just want to be able to talk to animals. I wish there was a way. Okay. And so, To go on another tangent, which I won't, but there are ways that people have started communicating with different bird species with like, you know, technology is one of those great things again, going back to that.

But in terms of like being out in the wild it can be very confusing for some bird species to hear playback. And so, you know, In like the twitching community, in the ornithological community, they usually say playback of different sounds is probably like not a good idea because it can be, it can be confusing for them.

It can disrupt what's going on.  You know, especially during breeding season, a girl might hear a particular sound of a bird going and then go, Oh, Where is that bird? They sound good. And so it can be, yeah, a little bit confusing for them, but I completely understand the sentiment and I love that. 

Cause I wish I could just arrive and, or even myself learn to say, I'm not a threat, I'm friendly and then take off.

But. Okay. 

Even if you're just, you can just even like, yeah, use your tone of voice, birds are really great on picking up on, on energy and like figuring out like if you're going to be a threat or not. Obviously a drone by itself, if you walk in silently and you take your drone out and it just takes off, that's going to be pretty alarming.

Okay. You know, you're pretty familiar to the area.  Often it probably sounds like a crazy bird lady, but I will often talk to birds in a very calm voice. Okay. Thanks guys. Yeah, that's good. It's good to know. Yeah, especially doing like surveys in particular areas. I remember one time I did a survey and it was breeding season.

It was actually last year during breeding season of a lot of different species. So during spring and I thought I'm going to get swooped so much.  The only birds that did swoop me in an area that was pollinated. I'm very known for swooping.  I had a butcher bird swoopie and a mast lap wing. So for people listening, plovers, they're often called that as well.

And they're the ones with the little barbs on their wings.  And so  they swooped me once and I just went, Oh, hi. I didn't react. I didn't get alarmed. I spoke to them very calmly. I'm not judging. They looked at me like, Oh, she's fine. Cool, great. So often, if you're just being calm, your body language isn't threatening.

It's not like making direct eye contact with particular animals. Just being chill,  that often, makes them go.  

That's so good. They're fine. That's good to know because I talk to magpies because yeah, there's you know, they look straight up I don't always say hi to them. Hello. Yeah, 

that's paying super taxes.

Yeah  That's really good. All right. Well, that's a great question There was actually a sneaky in between question that I remember that I needed to ask you. Yeah,  And then we'll go to the final one.  Something I've noticed the most when I Obviously birds come check on the drone it's usually crows or  magpies, like that's the, they are the ones who come check.

And I've noticed that magpies are more likely, we touched on this at the start, It's the start of the podcast, to be aggressive, close to the ground. Yes. Yeah. And then crowds are not scared to go up to 120 meters, but not always. Sometimes they give up, but sometimes magpies also go up to 120 meters. So I was wondering, I don't know how to ask the question, but what motivates them to make the effort? 

to go out of their comfort zones. Cause it looks like 120 meters for both crows and magpies. It's, it's an effort, but even more so for crows.  Does that make sense for you? 

It's just perceived threat for them. Because yeah, obviously some species, like some birds of prey can go up very high. 

Yeah. And 

so therefore if they perceive the drone as something that they can't So if someone is, you know, maybe able to, you know, evade them, get around them, and get  to their nest, they're going to be more motivated to want to get rid of that threat.

So it's really, again,  it's so hard to like, yeah, but it's, again, it's a, not a one size fits all. Some might be really wanting to protect their nest and some might be a little bit more chill about it. Okay. But if it is happening, it might be, again, stopping to take stock. Can you do it from a different spot?

Can you? 

Yeah. 

Can you alter your,  different can you ascend and descend, all that kind of stuff. It's just, basically, I guess,  the best way to think of it is  just being mindful of them, and it's gonna be always making a plan,  and then it's not always gonna go exactly how you plan it. You might have to, you might have to just kind of go, Hey, they're getting really aggressive, they're not giving up, I'm probably upsetting them. 

You might have to just go, I'm sharing 

the 

space and yeah, call 

it. And it has happened a couple of times. This, this season to me was more for all angles, it was dangerous. I was worried about them. They were getting too close to the drone because they didn't realize it was a drone, I think. Some birds are like, this is not a bird because the way I fly is a bit robotic.

I don't know if that's something I can think of, but sometimes they come, they're like, Oh, I can tell them that they're. watching me later, but they're not coming any closer. But some birds don't give up, and they get closer and closer, and they chase me all the way to the ground until I land. Yeah. That's when sometimes I'm just like, no, no, not happening today, or it's whatever I've captured.

That's it. That's, you know, that's all the best I can do. And recently in the city, I had some birds, the crowds, they would not give up. They were waiting for me to take off again. Even if I was waiting 10 minutes, they were waiting. And as soon as, because I think they understood that I was related to that thing in the air.

Yeah. So as long as they were, yes. And as long as they were seeing me, they were like, that weird thing is going to go up again.  So. They're so smart, you know, and  so it's good to know, you know,  what you said, summarize it all. It's like, you can't predict what's going to happen, but you can take steps to make sure not much will happen.

That's it. So it was good. It was good to have you. So I have a final fun question for you today. It's more about you and your partner. preference about birds. So my final question is, is there any bird fact or favorite story, favorite facts about birds you want to share on this episode today? Sure.  

Yeah, we, I think I touched on a little bit in this podcast as well today, but about those species in Australia that do live for a very long time, A but B, they need habitats that are really, really old.

So,  a lot of people know that birds do nest in the hollows of trees, but not a lot of people know that for those hollows to become big enough, so they need to grow enough, be old enough they need to be at least, at least 100 years old. Most of the time, 150 to 200 years old. Years old for those nest holes.

So that's some very very old trees. Yeah, and so we've got a lot of stuff in Australia that does happen in terms of like, you know habitats being encroached upon  You know bushfires are a huge thing for these old trees too because it's not, you know, just trees that are alive sometimes Ecosystems like not just the birds.

It can be a whole ecosystem of different species in these very old growth trees sometimes deceased trees  and so  one of those things that if you've got land, I guess, if anyone's thinking they've got a bit of land or they've got some trees and they think, Oh, I might want to, you know, maybe get rid of that tree.

Maybe consult with an arborist to see if you can conserve parts of that tree, because it might be incredibly integral to that ecosystem. 

Okay. 

Because even if we are obviously replanting trees, a hundred to two hundred years is a, a very, very long time. long time. And so a really simple thing as well to like help out with making sure that, you know, we're not cutting down particular trees or there are certain areas that maybe we don't want to have things being cut down to go and be made into things.

One of those things is like using recycled paper as much as possible and recycled toilet paper. Because. We need trees. They need trees. And a lot of the time we can use recycled paper as much as we possibly can and that can really help with a lot of these animals, especially these birds. 

Wow.

Yeah. I think that we should do a podcast about birds and trees next. Yeah. You'll have to come back because you've opened too many doors and now I have even more questions. 

I told you I'd go on tangents. I'm like, I'm going to go on a tangent about this now, aren't I?  

It's been awesome to have you. And I will ask my boss to have you back because now some, some questions answered, but now I feel like, like I just said, there's some themes that we would love to explore again.

So we'll see. Or I'll just get you on my personal podcast. 

Love that. I would be happy to come on. It 

was great.  In case people have more questions. Are they allowed to contact you? Can they contact you in some ways? Yes. 

If you want to learn more about bird species in general, I do have some social media that people can find me on. 

So one is specifically for, yeah, bird facts and my own birds and like how to look after birds in your home. So your friend here is the cockatiel here. Yes. So on yeah, TikTok and Instagram it's RoomieTheRingneck,  and then It's also, for some of my videography stuff, I don't think it's on the, on the, on the same sort of level as you guys and your videography.

But I do like dabble a little bit with some bird stuff, but it's Ember Videography. 

Awesome. Yeah. Cool. I'll make sure to put the links in the description. So just send them over and people will be able to find that. Thanks so much for today. No, thank you so much for having me. It was awesome. I feel like we've been recorded.

for a certain time. And for me, it feels 10 minutes. So it was great. Hold your own info dump. And I was like,  loved it. Lots to chat about. Thanks so much for your time and knowledge. And I hope we'll have you back. Thanks so much. And thanks everyone for watching or listening today. And like I said, if you like this podcast, feel free to give us some reviews or share it with people who are interested in this topic and we'll see you in the next one.

Bye bye.